NDE 4.0 Podcast Transcript
Episode 21 — NDT Expertise and Career Pathways
Our Guest: Marybeth Miceli – Executive Director of the Nondestructive Testing Management Association
Nasrin Azari (00:12)
Hello and welcome to Floodlight Software’s NDE 4.0 podcast. In this series, we interview various experts in industry 4.0 concepts, ideas, issues, and technologies as they relate to non-destructive testing and inspections. This show is designed to explore the biggest challenges and opportunities for the future of NDT guided by some of the smartest people in the industry. So be prepared for a thought-provoking discussion and to learn something new in the next 30 minutes. Hope you enjoy the episode.
Hi everyone. Today we are joined by Marybeth Michelli. If you’ve worked in the NDT industry, even for just a short time, you’ve most likely met or heard of Marybeth. She has worked with and alongside countless industry leaders to help them grow their business and advance the industry. Marybeth also has the unique distinction of being the youngest ASNT fellow. She serves on ASNT’s board of directors, is on the governance board committee, and served as the chair of the infrastructure committee.
Additionally, she serves on the National Academy of Sciences TRB AFF40 Committee on Bridge Testing, ASTM ⁓ E07.10 Committee and is a consultant for the Department of Homeland Security. Along with all of that dedicated work, she provides C-level consulting to her clients, often acting as an on-call COO, CMO, or CTO.
In today’s discussion, we’re going to focus on people-focused issues in the NDT industry, including finding and keeping great talent, leadership development, and how humans and AI can best work together. I’m excited to have you with us today, Mary Beth. This is your second time as a guest on our NDE 4.0 podcast. Welcome back to the show.
Marybeth Miceli (01:56)
It’s so nice to be here. Thank you for having me.
Nasrin Azari (01:59)
Of course, of course. The format of this podcast, as you probably recall, is that I’ll pose five questions to you designed to dig into some of the most meaningful and interesting aspects of NDE 4.0. Are you ready to jump in?
Marybeth Miceli (02:14)
I’m ready.
Nasrin Azari (02:16)
All right. So our first question for today is from a leadership standpoint, how can NDT companies better attract, develop, and retain women in technical and executive roles?
Marybeth Miceli (02:34)
Interesting. So of course, NDT, we have a lot of ⁓ issues, even recruiting and retaining employees in general, right. So I think that the aspects of business and company culture that would be attractive to women and help retain women are sort of universal and what would retain men also, right? I mean, let’s face it, NDT is not an easy industry to be in.
to start with, right? So you’re basically going on to a job site and you’re checking other people’s works and often you’re telling them, hey, this isn’t up to snuff, right? So ⁓ it’s not an easy position to be in sometimes. So I think having a culture of integrity that is behind everything that a company does is very attractive, not only to women, but to men and to NDTers who
that sort of their life mission, right? To help ensure integrity, whether that’s structurally or on assets, but also to have that backing of a company that says, yes, if you find something and you say that something’s not right, we’re gonna have your back. So I think that’s the first thing. ⁓ I think the second thing, and this is particularly true, there’s been all sorts of studies about how to retain women in
scientific fields is that if a company can provide flexibility in the schedule, ⁓ to allow them to have both a family life and a work life, that is very attractive to women. And sometimes they’ll take less money in order to have that flexibility. But I think for the younger generations in particular, when we’re looking at the millennials,
and Gen Z, it’s also been shown that they too value that having a work-life balance, much more so than, you know, Gen X and the folks that came before us where we were told just keep working really, really hard all the time. ⁓ So, again, I think it’s more of a universal thing, but definitely appeals to women to have a company that allows some flexibility in terms of scheduling.
Nasrin Azari (04:58)
Yeah. I speaking of the younger generation, something I’ve noticed, and this is not necessarily specific to NDT, but I do know that NDT, I feel like a lot of the folks that I know, they tend to travel a lot, right? They tend to go places and work on a job site for two weeks at a time. And I would think…
as a, you know, if you were a mother, for example, that might be really hard. But if you’re younger and you don’t have young children, for example, that for the younger generation, seems like that sometimes could be really attractive.
Marybeth Miceli (05:38)
Absolutely. I think when I was younger, I was, found it really exciting. You know, I got to travel all over the country and then I got to travel to Italy and Switzerland and England and you know, all sorts of places, which was great. ⁓ I try to keep the international travel to a minimum now ⁓ when I have kids, but ⁓ even, you know, I travel a lot still, but I get to work from home.
So when I am here, I can take the kids to school, I can pick them up from school, I can run them around a little bit and work in between. So I think that kind of flexibility when you’re not traveling is a really good balance of how to get it done.
Nasrin Azari (06:24)
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Let’s move on to question number two, which is what are some best practices for companies looking to build mentorship and career pathways for women in NDT?
Marybeth Miceli (06:39)
this is a huge one, right? So especially in NDT, where we still are, I mean, who knows what the actual number is, but we’re still around five to 6%, maybe women in the industry. Yeah. Yeah. And if you think about it, it was 3 % when I was born in 1977. So we’ve made some progress, not a huge amount. But if you the mentoring programs in particular,
are super important and having a formalized program at a company is really important to keep the younger generation of women engaged, supported. Now, the problem may be that you may not have another woman in the company ⁓ that is older, right? That is of my generation and
In that case, it’s important to have men who are allies, who see the challenges, who understand from an internal mentoring program that you might put in place to have those people really help the younger generation of women. But it’s also important to then connect the women in your company to older women in the NDT industry. And they might not know them.
But you as an executive, say you’re a male executive in the NDT space, you have peers in the industry who you can reach out to and say, hey, would you mind taking an hour a month to just talk with ⁓ maybe one or two women in my company that we really believe that they have some upward mobility, ⁓ we see real potential in them, we really want to help develop them. And I think that
doing that in terms of either finding a good internal mentor for them or an external mentor for them shows them that you are interested in them and it helps with the retention. I know I sort of took it back to the other question, but that is the best practice, right? The best practice is for you to show that you are interested and invested in your younger employees.
particularly for women.
Nasrin Azari (09:07)
Do you think that there’s any particular like growth path or role that is particularly ⁓ suited for women versus men? I mean, you’ve been in the industry for a very long time yourself. I’m a recent entrant in the industry and it seems like there’s, I definitely see the male dominance and I can see the
you know, the type of work that’s done, feels like, you know, it feels like a male dominated industry, but I’m sure that there are, you know, obviously there’s different ways that women and men think and grow and mature and all of that. So what do you think about, like, are there any particular roles where you think women would excel?
Marybeth Miceli (10:00)
Absolutely. actually, ⁓ I want to say back around the pandemic time, Ripi Singh and I wrote an article together for the women in NDT issue of materials evaluation. And we talked specifically about the science of men’s brain versus women’s brains and how women tend to have more connections between their right hemisphere and their left hemisphere. And they are
therefore able to see a bigger picture and work on creative problem solving and managing people so they can manage the technology and creatively solve problems on that side and manage the people all at the same time. They’re very good at multitasking because of these connections that their neurons fire between the two different hemispheres, the creative and the logical versus men tend to stay in one hemisphere
when they’re working on something. And so I think that as we move towards an NDE 4.0 type environment where so many different aspects have to be interconnected in order to work together to, whether it’s robotics or motion control and the method itself and…
and how does it fit into manufacturing? All of those things are very suited for the way a woman’s brain works. And so I think that in particular is a great role for women and a great growth opportunity for where we are now in the industry.
Nasrin Azari (11:42)
That’s really, really fascinating. I love that you’re pulling from psychology and brain analysis. I think that’s awesome. And it’s really nice segue actually into our next question, which is let’s talk for a minute about how people and emerging technology can work best together.
What you see as the biggest obstacles in integrating automation into NDT workflows and how can these be overcome?
Marybeth Miceli (12:15)
So this could be a whole hour session on itself, right? This is a huge topic, right? So I think some of the biggest obstacles, and right, when we’re looking at sort of the automation and into NDE or NDT workflows, you sort of have to look at manufacturing.
versus lab versus field, right? Those are all very different environments that we’re looking in. But all of them struggle with the digitalization of the NDT process. I mean, let’s be honest, people are still using film.
So how do you digitalize that and standardize it so that you can integrate it into a workflow? Those are some of the issues from the field side of things. And a lot of people, even on the manufacturing side or in the lab side, are using outdated equipment. Maybe it’s like an old immersion tank or something.
but the immersion tank only works with Windows XP. And this was part of the approved process that we got approved and certified. So we can’t change anything in it. So those are some of the challenges that I think are unique to NDT. And there’s a couple ways that people can address that, but I think people are looking to retrofit some equipment. mean, these are very expensive systems.
maybe they’re looking to retrofit a system, but you have to find, I think it all lies in the software, right? So you have to find software that can digitalize NDT data, work seamlessly with, you know, motion controllers, PLCs, ⁓ robotics, automation equipment that say is in the manufacturing side, or even scanners that are
on the field side of things. So if you find software that is flexible enough to work with the different systems that are out there, but that can also…
be NDT focused, that’s the challenge. And I think there are a couple of software systems out there that are doing it. And certainly more software companies are coming into the space. ⁓ But I think that’s gonna be the real challenge to find software that is method agnostic, manufacturer agnostic that can help integrate and let’s say push the
digitalization of the NDT methods and then integrate it into the automation that’s already out there. Let me introduce you. that all made sense.
Nasrin Azari (15:22)
introduce you to forward-like software. mean, automation is a really, and NDT software is a huge, there’s a huge opportunity. That’s why we’re in the space. And I, I 100 % agree with you on the fact that, you know, there’s a lot of complex problems to solve, which makes it, which is why it’s fun to be in the, in the space of software for NDT.
⁓ And it’s exciting too, because of all the changes. And like you said, we often focus as a software company in the entity space, we often focus on the new tools that are coming out, the new things that are producing digital output. And we’re focused on, okay, well, how do we bring that into a test operation easily so that it’s.
so that it’s really seamless and we can kind of integrate through an API and all of these things. But your comment about legacy systems and the older tools that don’t have those capabilities and yet they’re very expensive systems that are going to be around for a long time, that’s another interesting aspect that has to be addressed by us or other tools that companies are using.
Marybeth Miceli (16:42)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, I work in the bridge space and we’re still dragging chains across decks and listening to them, humans. So think about where that is. And, you know, I work in emerging technologies and to be able to help owners understand that we’re at the point now where if we can digitalize some of these aspects of your inspection process,
the gains that you’re going to make on efficiency are going to more than make up for what you have to spend on the technology and on the software at this point.
Nasrin Azari (17:16)
And then the other piece of it is, and we talk about this a lot with customers and partners, is not only is there technology changes and upgrades that need to be made, but there’s also change management. So process changes. And I feel like that’s almost a bigger hurdle. And kind of to your point earlier, it also feels to me that that
that could be an area where women could excel too. And sort of helping to drive ⁓ process changes. I mean, guess it’s obviously not limited to women, change, digitalization of processes is basically change. It’s process change that has to be.
adopted by a large number of users that may have been using the same manual process for 20 plus years. And it’s a hard thing to change once, from that starting point.
Marybeth Miceli (18:26)
Yeah, and women in this industry are obviously dedicated to change, right? We’re not, we are not the status quo. So if we are in the industry, ⁓ we are already comfortable with change, we’re comfortable with pivoting, we’re comfortable with adapting to our environment. So it’s something that we tend to see as a bigger picture and see how we can, how we can make things better.
Nasrin Azari (18:53)
Very, very well put. Love that. Let’s expand this topic a bit further and go ⁓ into artificial intelligence. For question four, how would you say AI-driven image recognition and predictive analytics are changing the way inspections are conducted?
Marybeth Miceli (19:14)
this is certainly the hot topic, right? So we’re looking at, you know, assisted defect recognition, in some cases, automated rec defect recognition. And I think on the manufacturing side, they are really pushing the limits of this, you know, you’ve got the CT companies, then the CT manufacturers, computer tomography, digital radiography, sorry for those.
I know in NDT we tend to start talking acronyms. So I wanted to make sure I give everybody that information. So the companies that are working in CT and the manufacturers, the software packages that come with those systems now are very much on the forefront of this. They are working in ⁓ pattern recognition, machine learning. Of course, the more data that
that can be fed into the system, the better the algorithm gets. So certainly from a radiography standpoint in the manufacturing environment, are right on the edge of there and people are already starting to use the assisted defect recognition in everyday usage. I think things are a little,
more difficult on the field side, you have more variables. And it’s going to take more data integration, many, many, many more data sets. People are starting to use simulated sets. So they’ll go in and they’ll simulate what a defect would look like for their system and run it over and over again and use a randomizer to
find where that defect is and or place where that defect is and then feed that into their algorithm as well. So it’s sort of a balance between real data and simulated data. And I think that for now is where the industry has to go because you could spend years trying to collect the amount of data that is needed to improve the algorithm. ⁓ But if we can use that combination
and continue to improve it with real data. I think that’s sort of where the industry has to go for if we are going to start to rely on more assisted defect recognition. Now, of course, part of the issue is that the codes are not set up to accept that kind of information, right? So I know that.
Yeah, it’s a whole other problem. in fact, so one of the things we didn’t mention is I’m the executive director of NDTMA, which is the Non-Destructive Testing Management Association. And for 2026, we are going to have a whole session on ⁓ ADR, AI, machine learning, but we’re also going to have each of the code bodies come and talk to us about what are they doing about AI? What is coming?
What is going to be written into code? How are we going to address this? And it’s not only going to be them talking to us, we’re going to make a workshop out of it because we as an industry have to come up with the best solution about how this information can be used and who’s watching it. Right. So, mean, eventually, right. You still need a human to be checking on this, even if you’re going to use assisted defect recognition, because
We don’t, we’re not at that point where it can be automated. And I’m not sure we’re ever going to get to that point. We still need that engineering judgment that’s going to come in and say, you know, we might get to a point where it says, Hey, look over here. We’ve got some issues. And then the, the auditor, the level three, the engineer can go in and say, yep, that’s this issue. Yes. Where that’s an anomaly and we see that and this is what it is. And
then report back on it. But I also think, you know,
the AI, as we all know, is not perfect. If you’ve used chat GPT, right? So and let me tell you, I can tell a lot of people have just from their LinkedIn posts. ⁓ Read the word, their emails, right? Or if I read the word paramount one more time, it’s definitely an AI word. Nobody uses that word. But you know, chat GPT doesn’t get it right.
Nasrin Azari (23:52)
Are there any?
Marybeth Miceli (24:06)
You know, neither does, you know, there’s Claude and all the other ones, right? So, so it’s going to be a long time. And I don’t think we’re ever going to get away from it, but we need to figure out how we can balance the efficiency that we’re getting out of it with the accuracy, the quality that we’re getting out of it because it’s coming. Yeah. Yeah. It’s coming for us. So we have to figure out how we’re as an industry going to handle it.
Nasrin Azari (24:35)
And I like that thought of, okay, we have to start today, so we’re gonna use simulated data, knowing that it’s simulated data. And then as we proceed, we will add real data to the mix, and then it should just only get better and better the more real data that we add. And in fact, some of what I see is that the more we use AI, it feels like the more work we can get done.
Right. The more often we can inspect things, the more, you know, the faster we can inspect things, which just means more data coming into the pipe, right. As, we improve. I almost feel like it’s this cycle that’s going to build upon itself and, and get better and better. And I, know, I, I feel like there’s this fear from people of kind of losing control with, you know, putting AI in control beyond us. But I agree with you that you’re always going to have.
there’s always going to be somebody that needs to have the responsibility of accepting or rejecting the determination made by an AI. mean, maybe at some point we get to a point where that’s not the case, but I don’t see it. Like, I don’t see it yet. Sounds like you don’t see it either yet.
Marybeth Miceli (25:50)
I don’t see it. It’s going to be so I mean, look, we have to use AI. So on the structural health monitoring side of world of the world, you have so much data coming in at such a regular basis that you have to use some sort of filtering system, right, that’s going to point out some anomalies. But again, the systems are so complex that are out in the real world. And there’s so many different variables. You still need a human to say,
⁓ somebody sat on the pipe. That’s why I got that reading, right? Like there’s just gonna be some sort of, you know, thing that is outside the realm of prediction from an AI system.
Nasrin Azari (26:32)
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, I think it’s time now to pull out your crystal ball for our final question, Marybeth. What trends do you see shaping NDT operations moving forward and how should service companies and asset owners prepare for them? I’m thinking here about aspects of the business related to marketing, sales and service delivery.
Marybeth Miceli (26:56)
Yeah, so that’s a loaded question for sure. So let’s talk about sales first, right? And sales is where I think we’re going to have the least amount of change. look, NDT, I’ll say it again, based on integrity, and people still want to buy from
people that they know, that they have a relationship with, that they trust. And NDT, I feel like more than any other industry is still very belly to belly, right? We wanna see people in person, we wanna talk to them, we wanna get to know them, we wanna talk out our problems with them. Think even with video conferencing, you know.
That’s helpful, but I think these traveling salespeople are still going to be traveling because when you get in front of somebody and you help them talk through their challenges and let them see how your solution helps them solve their problem, that’s still the most effective sales strategy in NDT.
⁓ You know, you’ve got all sorts of stuff they’re going to try to feed the funnel, right? So you’ve got the prospecting from the automated emails that and if they don’t open that one, okay, then you if this then that right, then you send this other one. It’s an all’s automated. And like you said, they’re using the word paramount or I said they’re using the word paramount right in these emails that nobody really uses. And then they keep sending the emails until you respond.
It’s not a strategy that works in NDT. We’re all too busy. all, ⁓ we have important jobs to do. So it’s really about forging these relationships with folks. And I, like I said, I don’t think that is going to change too much. What will change right now, right, is we’re all looking at the tariffs and we’re trying to figure out who’s paying for what, how is that going to affect sales?
How is that going to affect manufacturing? What components can we not use? What components do we have to switch to? Interesting. What is the quality control on those? How do we get those approved on our process? What’s the cost of that approval versus the cost of just having a ⁓ price on that component? That is a big problem and something that the salespeople have to be prepared to talk about.
So I’ve spoken to various different large companies in the NDT space. Some of them are covering the cost of the tariffs right now and have been for a little while. Some of them are not. And so it’s an interesting dynamic right now. And unfortunately for the salespeople, it comes down on them, right? People are receiving goods and getting a much higher price than they were quoted.
Yeah. So what is and how does that affect sales? there’s a very dynamic market right now. So sales process not changing so much, but what the salespeople have to know and understand about how their company is dealing with tariffs, that’s changing rapidly and probably will continue to change as we move into this into this new dynamic. ⁓ I think
Marketing. Marketing is changing a little more, right? So. ⁓
We have the NDT core people, right? The people who work in NDT, they want nourishing information. They don’t want stale V content coming at them. They want something that they can really sink their teeth in, that they can learn from, that is worth them inputting their time, right? So even listening to this podcast, they want to get something out of it. That’s why they’re listening. But
And that’s true of anything, blog posts, LinkedIn posts, all of that stuff. I think that’s still the core of NDT marketing. I think people, as I mentioned earlier, are still trying to use AI and use it effectively in marketing for NDT. I have seen some logos, I have seen some AI generated images. ⁓
not sure that’s the best way to go. It does, it does sort of undermine the integrity of what you’re trying to talk about when you’re using ⁓ something and like I said, stat GPT, Claude, they all have laws in them in terms of how much NDT knowledge they have. because they get better as the more knowledge that they consume. But
⁓ They’re not there yet, so you better have people checking that.
Nasrin Azari (32:19)
Yeah, and I think there’s just a lot to be said for the energy that people share when they’re together, like face to face or in a phone call or even in a zoom meeting. Even though it’s not face to face, there’s just a different level of energy and creative discourse that happens and you get excited and just kind of like you were talking about the beginning. People buy from people that they connect with that they like that they trust and.
I think, I feel like a lot of companies are experimenting like you were suggesting with AI and kind of some of these new tools to help their business operations and things like marketing and sales processes. But I definitely feel like the NDT industry more than many that I’ve been a part of in the past, I feel like this industry is
definitely very people focused. I just, I feel that there’s this energy, like I was talking about this energy that people have when they talk about the problems that they’re having when they share ideas and real life experiences and suggestions with each other that just make a world of difference than the email campaigns and
even things like blog posts that are just very impersonal sometimes. So.
Marybeth Miceli (33:52)
Absolutely. So I, you know, one of the things that I do on my infrastructure consulting side is I go to these conferences and I’ll talk with people and I’m usually not looking for work, right? So I, but I will go around and look at the different emerging technologies. And I think one of the reasons that people hire me is because they see that I’m a big dork. I will see their technology. I’ll be like, that’s so exciting. Tell me more about that.
And it’s because I’m really interested. I’m working with a company right now that does ⁓ UAS with infrared thermography of bridge decks. And they’re using AI, they’re using all sorts of technology to get these inspections done much more quickly than they’ve ever been done before. And less expensive, people don’t have to be on the decks. It’s all very exciting to me.
because I did my thesis work in infrared thermography. And there’s that kind of excitement and passion that cannot be replicated by AI generated emails or AI generated, even YouTube, know, there, people are doing the AI voice overs on YouTube videos. And it, it really, it immediately makes me think that
They’re not interested themselves in what they’re saying because they, they’ve got a computer to talk about it.
Nasrin Azari (35:20)
Exactly. Yeah, you’re right. There’s that sort of, you know, definitely, I mean, I guess, I guess the bottom line is NTT is kind of a geeky profession. mean, every there’s so much knowledge. There’s I mean, every you have to know a lot, you know, there’s a lot of knowledge. There’s a lot of skills that have been built up over years. I mean, most of the people that are many of the people that I know, it’s like,
I think probably, you know, this is one of the careers where people start in NDT when they get out of school or they decide to go on into the path of NDT for whatever reason. And they tend to stay in the business like for their whole careers. And so you’ve got a lot of people that have been in the business for 20 years and they live it. And why? Because they’re passionate about it. They love it. That’s one of the things that I love about this industry is how passionate.
the people are and what you’re passionate about is really, really valuable. I mean, you’re saving people’s lives, right? You’re looking the world safer. And that to me is just, that’s what lights me up, Is the fact that’s what this industry is all about.
Marybeth Miceli (36:39)
Yeah, and actually one of the things that we talked about, ⁓ and I’m bringing it all full circle for a second, is that women in particular want their career path and their job to make a difference in the world. Psychologists have done studies on this, that that’s one of the things that really attracts women to certain fields. So when they learn about NDT, they’re very excited about it because…
They are making a difference in the world. They’re making the world a safer place. They’re keeping every aspect of our lives safe for other people. ⁓ that’s having that bigger purpose in NDT is what it’s all about. And that’s why people are so passionate about it. And that’s what keeps us here.
⁓ We’re able to use technology that we’re super excited about anyway, because we’re dorks. And then to be able to then use that to then save lives is really exciting.
Nasrin Azari (37:42)
Yeah, I 100 % agree. And I feel like we have been, today we’ve been sort of all over the map, which is awesome. We’ve talked about technology, we’ve talked about people, and I just want to thank you, Mary Beth. It’s been so great having you on the podcast as a guest. Again, I always feel like I learn something when I talk to you. And obviously we’re also so grateful for all of your contributions.
to the entire industry, to leadership. So thank you so much for being with us.
Marybeth Miceli (38:13)
thank you for having me. This was really great.
Nasrin Azari (38:15)
Good, good. So for the listeners, if you’d like to learn more about Marybeth’s work, you can visit her website at we-ndt.com. You can also follow her on LinkedIn. And if you have any feedback for us, we certainly welcome feedback as well as nominations for future guests. To do that, you can send a message to us through the Contact Us form on our website, www.Foodlightsoft.com. Thanks again for joining us and see you next time.
And that’s a wrap for today’s discussion. Head on over to our NDE 4.0 podcast page for more interviews like this one and reach out if you have any questions, feedback, or ideas that you’d like to share. Thanks very much and have a great day.
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